Jonathan Vess Of Texas-A Possible Vice Connection

This is a long post, but I assure you it is worth the read…

Friendly Reminder:
The opinions and thoughts in this post are based on my own personal point of view researching these families. Links to sources are provided to allow the reader / researcher to form their own opinions, thoughts, and conclusions.

Tangled DNA Matches

Genetic genealogy is a great tool in locating stuborn early ancestors; however, the colossal challenge of analyzing autosomal DNA is that it is limited to only 6-8 generations.

For me, my autosomal DNA largely captures descendants of Andrew Logan Vess and Lucy Malinda Halford (my 3rd great grandparents – 6th generation). It also detects a good portion of descendants of Andrew Logan Vess and Cinthia Conner, because we share a good deal of DNA from Andrew Logan Vess.

As we move over on the Vess family tree to the siblings of Andrew Logan Vess (John, Josiah, Alfred, etc.), those matches are more distant as they are barely detectable with <1% DNA match. Interestingly though, comparing the number of shared DNA segments (cM), I match closer to descendants of Willis Vess than I do to the descendants of Nathan Vess, sometimes more closely than the siblings of Andrew Logan Vess! This, in my opinion, likely has A LOT to do with my mother’s deep roots in South Carolina and Georgia.

It is extremely difficult to pry apart my parents shared southern DNA matches.
My mother matches with ALL the descendants of Andrew Logan Vess and Lucy Malinda “Linnia” Halford (the bulk of my shared Vess matches) on my father’s side, because Linnia Halford’s mother, Sarah Jane “Lollie” HILL, is a descendant of William Augustus Hill, my mother’s 7th great-grandfather. To make matters worse, the Halford and Hill families lived next to each other on Knobs Creek in Rutherford County, North Carolina, mingling with so many families connected to the Vess family!

Thomas J. Halford & Sarah Jane “Lollie” Hill
Rutherford County, North Carolina

My mother’s Hill line eventually settled in Anderson, Abbeville County, South Carolina, which just so happens to be a hot spot where many families of interest seem to have converged at one point or another. One HILL ancestor of mine, found his way to Greenville, South Carolina and connected with a BENTLEY from Georgia, opening the flood gates to even more deeper roots in the South.

With this, my mother seems to shares DNA matches with many southern families, including the Nathaniel Vice family (via a Turley connection) that migrated to Alabama as they passed through Georgia.

Interestingly, my mother does not share DNA matches with descendants of REUBEN VICE of South Carolina, who is the son of John Vice and Frances Roebuck. She also does not share DNA matches with VICE families in Kentucky who are likely connected to Nathaniel Vice II (brother of John Vice of South Carolina). This is interesting, because if she doesn’t share those matches, it is likely a connection on my VESS line.

How do I know it’s not a connection on my parents maternal lines?
DNA matches suggest a connection within 6-8 generations back, which would greatly eliminated my parents maternal sides who arrived late to the United States and had very little connection with the south. My father’s maternal side arrived in Ohio in 1894 from Austria and my mother’s maternal side arrived in Michigan in 1948 from England. When looking at shared matches, it is easy to identify and eliminate leads connected to my parents maternal sides.

Exploring Sarah A. Vess & Vardry McBee Connection

Vincent Vess, co-admin of the Vess Family DNA Project, has made an interesting discovery analyzing his own autosomomal DNA.

He discovered a shared DNA match with a Vess descendant of Alabama and a descendant of Sarah A. Vess and Vardry “Nodsed” McBEE; Sarah being the daughter of Jonathan Vess and Elizabeth Heron in Jackson County, Texas.

If the name Vardry McBee sounds oddly familiar, that is because it is a name often seen on many records in North Carolina. According to the Biographical Information section of McBEE Family Papers, Captain Vardry McBee was a constable in 1770 in Tryon County, North Carolina. His son, Vardry McBee Jr., later became a court clerk in Lincoln County, North Carolina in 1812.

The name “Vardry” is used numerous times throughout their family tree. Vardry “Nodsed” McBee, husband of Sarah Ann Vess, being one of them.

Vardry “Nodsed” McBee descends from Captain Vardry McBee (1734) and Hannah ECHOLS from Virginia via Silas Echols McBee Sr. (1765) who is the older brother of Vardry McBee Jr (1775), court clerk of Lincoln County, NC.

Unfortunately, not much is mentioned about Silas Echols McBee Sr. (1765) who appears to have settled in Kentucky. However, according to South Carolina Digital Records, there is a 1785 land record for Silas McBee, next to Vardry McBee (I assume his father-Sr.) on Thickety Creek in the 96th District of South Carolina. [Located North of the Pool and Pettit families] According to Revolutionary War Rosters, Silas and Vardry McBee served under Col. Roebuck (related to Francis Roebuck, wife of John Vice).

We do know that John Vice also had family in Kentucky via Nathaniel Vice II; however, very little is known about them.

Peter White of Texas – Discovery of Henry Vice of Virginia

When Jonathan Vess of Texas died, Elizabeth Heron married Peter White.

Peter White was born in Virginia (1801) to Shadrick White and Sarah Gibson. According to the Annuals of Soutwest Virginia 1769-1800 (pg. 1252), Shadrick was living in an area on or near “Madien Spring Fork Clinch River,” which is located in Tazewell County, VA near the North Fork Holston River.

*Note: Jonathan Vess and Peter White are both listed in Stephen F. Austins Register of Families, both having traveled from Missouri.

I decided to check for VICE families in and around the area and surprisingly, I discovered Henry VICE, living on South Fork Holston River, less than 50 miles away from the White family. Unfortunately, I do not know if Henry Vice is related to John and Nathaniel Vice, however, further research suggests there may be a connection.

1792: Henry Vice joins land with John Vaught and and Jarvis Smyth
1803: Henry Vice adds 60 acres to his own land
1803: Henry Vice joins land with Alexander Campbell and Crockett family
1806: Joseph Williams joins land with Henry Vice

County Boundaries Notes:
Although records for Henry Vice state Wythe County, the South Fork of Holston River is not in Wythe County. It begins in modern day Smyth County and flows through Washington County. Wythe County used to cover parts of Smyth and Washington County prior to 1792. Wythe County also included modern day Tazewell County and extended all the way to Patrick County. Residents in the Holston River area are likely to have records under several different counties.

James Harvey Vest

A few months back I gained an interest in James Harvey Vest (1838) from Patrick County, VA. I noticed the name was on a list of Y-DNA results next to Willis Vess; however, it was explained to me that they are not related to each other, but curiously, neither of them are related to the VEST family of Virginia.

I reached out to W. Langdon, whose family has done extensive research on James Harvey Vest. With their help, I was able to check for shared DNA matches between our families and it turns out that my aunt (via her Vess line) does share a DNA match with a descendant of James Harvey Vest with two interesting families on their family tree: CAUDILL and VESSE (specifically Ephremia Vesse).

We could be connected through our family’s COX line (Pearl Cox), for that the COX and CAUDILL families were close together in Wilkes County, North Carolina. Interestingly, this was during a time when a William Vess was there.

I’ve seen Ephremia Vesse on many trees of shared DNA matches. She is the daughter of John “Vessey” and married Partick Conyngham (Cunningham). The interesting part is that sources say she died in Augusta County, Virginia. A place we have found shared DNA matches among the descendants of Willis and Peter Vess with a descendant of an early Logan family living in Augusta County, near the VESS/VEST family of Rockbridge County, VA. [I will share those findings in a different post, as I have found more pockets of VESS/VEST/ VICE families all along the western counties of Virginia]

CAUDILL and VESSE are also interesting, for that the VICE family supposedly descends from a VESSEY in Frederick County, VA and according to Appalachian Home website, CAUDILL and VICE families are listed as “Allied families.”
What is the connection though?

In 1850, James Harvey Vest (1838) and his sister Nancy Vest were in Tazewell County, Virginia. His sister Nancy, married Joseph White, who I believe is related to the same White family as Peter White and her marriage record states she was born in Patrick County, VA and that her father is “Henry VOSS” and “Mary” (no last name). According to public trees on Ancestry.com, Mary may have a connection to the Caudle family. Could James Harvey Vest be related to Henry Vice?

But, it gets even more interesting…

James Heron: Holston River

I looked at land records for the Holston River area and discovered James Heron. Not only did he have land on the South Fork of the Holston River (like Henry Vice), but also on all the Forks of the Holston River, including the North Fork near the White family.

I can’t help but wonder, is this the same James Heron we see on the Patrick County, VA Deed Records 1791-1801 on Bull Mountain and Koger Creek with William Vess/Voss? Is this James Heron related to Elizabeth Heron, wife of Jonathan Vess of Texas?

The Genealogy Monkey Wrench: Y-DNA

I hate busting bubbles, but James Harvey Vest does not appear to be genetically related to our Vess family. Although we do share the same parent Haplogroup (R), our lineages separated thousands of years ago into R1a and R1b subgroups. Our Vess family branches from R1a, whereas James Harvey Vest branches from R1b. Yet, curiously, genealogical records strongly suggest that both our families may have a connection with the Vice family.

Unfortunately, to the best of my knowledge, there is no available information regarding Y-DNA testing for the VICE family.

But, there is a slight glimmer of hope for a connection, for that our VESS family is mysteriously closely related to the Travers family. So, in theory, it is still plausible that there could be a connection to all these families, perhaps through a half-sibling somewhere.

Quick Recap:

  1. Genealogical records suggest a connection between the VESS and VICE families.
  2. There appears to be a distant connection between an Alabama Vess and a descendant of Jonathan Vess of Texas (via Sarah A. Vess and Vardry McBee).
  3. McBee family has history in North Carolina.
  4. Elizabeth Heron married Peter White after the death of Johnathan Vess. The White family is from Tazewell County, Virginia.
  5. Henry Vice (relation to John Vice family unknown) has land in the Holston River area near the White family.
  6. Research strongly suggests that James Harvey Vest from Partick County, Virginia living in Tazewell County, VA in 1850, may have a connection with the Vice family too.
  7. A marriage record for James Harvey Vest’s sister states their father is “Henry Voss.”
  8. James HERON also has land in the Holston River area. Interestingly, we see the name James HERON with William VESS/VOSS on Bull Mountain and Koger Creek in Patrick County, VA deed records 1791-1801. Is this the same James Heron?
  9. Jonathan Vess and Elizabeth Heron were married in Patrick County, VA.
  10. Further research and autosomal DNA analysis suggests a Vess connection with early VICE families in Virginia and records have revealed more pockets of VESS/VEST/VOSS/VICE families throughout the western counties of Virginia.












































Let’s start in Patrick
He was born in Virginia, 1779 and married Elizabeth Heron in 1791, in Patrick County, Virginia. We have discovered a William Vess/Vest in Patrick County, Virginia living near the Heron family (Patrick County deed records). This is either Jonathan William Vess himself or perhaps his father.

In the mid-1820’s him and his wife, Elizabeth Heron, traveled to Missouri and then down to the Republic of Texas with Stephen F. Austin. In 1831, Jonathan received land from the Mexican government and gave a portion of his land to build the town of Morales, TX (a ghost-town today with a history of outlaws).

John died in 1846. His daughter, Mary Lorena Vess, married Samuel McCulloch Jr., who was a free-slave, famously known for fighting in the Texas Revolution.

John Vice: The Missing Link To Vess Genealogy?

Although the VESS/VEST family of Patrick County, Virginia (1790-1801) are extremely intriguing and seem like a promising connection, I am drawn back to the Dark Corners of South Carolina. I decided to take another look at Peter, Willis, and Nathan Vess. Looking at all my research, I have come to realize that the early families surrounding them, all came from South Carolina.

Peter: Pettit and Toney families.
Willis: Nichols, Willis, Askews, Whitlock families (many more)
Nathan: Bellew and Gosnell families

Of course, these families all have different origin-origins, like the Pettit family come from New Jersey, the Gosnell family come from Maryland, and the Nichols, Willis, Askews (Eskews) and Whitlock families come from Virginia; but all of them, just before they appear with our earliest known Vess ancestors (Peter, Willis, and Nathan) … were all in South Carolina; more specifically, the Tyger River area.

Tyger River Area: South Carolina’s Complicated Borders

The western portion of South Carolina has a complicated history with very messy borders, making it a nightmare to find family records. For instance, between 1769-1779, Tryon County, North Carolina and the Ninety-Six District in South Carolina overlap. Some residents in this area were issued land from the State of North Carolina while others were issued land from the state of South Carolina.

The Vice Family

I’ve looked for families with similar surnames to VESS in South Carolina a zillion times, but apparently, I overlooked the VICE family.

On the 1810 census record for Spartanburg County, South Carolina, I found a John Vice next to Nancy Poole. Nancy Poole reminds me of Nancy Pool, sister of Mary Ann Pool, who married Henry Pettit Sr (neighbor and member of Bill’s Creek Baptist Church with Peter Vess).

So, I searched the name “John Vice” in the South Carolina Digital Archives.
One record of interest is a land record dated 1824 for Benjamin Nicholls on Thomsons Branch along the Tyger River. It includes familiar families such as Duncan, Moore, Nicholls, Pettit, and Willis.

Clearly intrigued, I began to research further…

Many early families are well documented by family historians and generally, with a few odd-ball keywords, a good chunk of their history can be found via Google. I was fortunate to find information pertaining to the VICE family on a Turley Family website.

Who Is John Vice

Land records show that the Vice family has been in the Tyger River community as early as 1782 and numerous sources say some members of the Vice family moved to Benton (now Calhoun) county, Alabama.

Research tells us that John Vice was born in Orange County, Virginia about 1755 and died in Spartanburg County, South Carolina in 1833. He is the son of Nathaniel Camp Vice (1730-1802) of Frederick County, Virginia.

Nathaniel Camp Vice is supposedly the son of Robert or John VESSEY of Frederick County, Virginia; however, the origins of VESSEY are not clear. Nathaniel Camp Vice migrated south and settled in Campbell County, Kentucky with many of his descendants rooting in Bath County, Kentucky.

Nathaniel’s son, John Vice (some note his name as John William Vice), married Frances Roebuck in 1773 in Chatham County, North Carolina, before settling in Spartanburg County, South Carolina. According to the Turley Family website, they had 10 children:

John Roebuck Vise abt. 1774

Nathaniel Vise abt. 1774 and married Dorcas MEADERS. (Meadows?)

Rhoda Vise abt. 1776 and married Peter LAWRENCE.

Levi Vise abt. 1778

George Vise  abt. 1780 and married Elizabeth WALKER.

Reuben Vise  1782

Eliphous Hosea “Eli” Vise abt. 1785 and married Rebecca MEADERS. (Meadows?)

Elizabeth Vise 1787 in Spartanburg , SC and married Thomas WRIGHT.

Azariah “Zery” Vise  abt. 1790

Jeremiah “Jere” Vise about 1790

Abner Vise about 1792 and married Lucinda PREWITT.

Jemima Vise about 1792

A Tyger River Baptist Church Connection


The Turley family website states: “John Vise and Frances Roebuck Vise were members of the Tyger River Baptist Church, also called Friendship Church. On the membership roll for 1801-1803…” 

This is an incredible find, for that the Tyger River Baptist Church was part of the same church association as Bill’s Creek Baptist Church. We also know that the Pettit family were also members of the Tyger River Baptist Church.

According to history.ky.gov, the location of the Tyger River Baptist Church is unknown however is said to have been located in the northern portion of Greenville County, close to the North Carolina border. This would ideally put the church very close to the Glassy Mountain community and the communities along the Pacelot River (North and South Carolina border in modern day Polk County) where we find many early families from Tryon County (like the Logan family).

I bet there are a lot of interesting families listed as members on the Tyger River Baptist Church Membership Rolls; unfortunately, these records do not appear to be available online nor are they physically available near me.

Census Records: Spartanburg County, South Carolina

On the 1790 census record for Spartanburg County, South Carolina, you will find the following families:
1. Boston Best
2. Henry Pattit (Pettit)
3. Joshua Pattit (Pettit)
4. John Wice (Vice)

A few pages over, you will find the following families:
1. Abraham Belue (Bellew)
2. Joshua Gosnell

*The Bise families on the 1790 census might actually be part of the Vise family.

On the 1800 census record for Spartanburg County, South Carolina, you will find the following families interestingly close together:
Nat Vice (Nathaniel Vice, John Vice son)
John Willis
Richard Willis (find him on land records with Vice family)


DNA Connections

Autosomal DNA Results
For me, many of the names on the VICE family tree frequently show up in my DNA relatives list, especially via the Turley, McPherson, and White families.

Even more interestingly, I have a long list of distant DNA relatives with family trees showing them as descendants of the VICE family and not just through one VICE family line, but numerous VICE family lines. Most are via John and Nathaniel Vice (sons of John and France Roebuck Vice of South Carolina) and others are from several different descending lines (sons and daughters) from Nathaniel Camp Vice in Kentucky. And, to make it even more interesting, they share DNA relatives with DNA relatives who are descendants on the Willis Vess line.

Pettit – Vice Connection
The granddaughter of John Vice married Benjamin Pettit who is related to Henry Pettit Sr. (neighbor and member of Bill’s Creek Baptist Church with Peter Vess) through Joshua Pettit.

John Vice and Henry Pettit have a common neighbor: Andrew Thomson. *Correction: Andrew Thomson maybe the surveyor.
1. 1784 land record: Pacelot River / Ninety-six District Henry Pettit, William Pool, and Andrew Thomson
2. 1786 land record: Tyger River / Ninety-six District John Vise, Andrew Thomson, John Oshields, Joel Hembree, David Grimes, John Butler *Pettit and Hembree families are related.

The Next Chapter: Vice Family

I am really excited about discovering the Vice family! Not only do they have a similar surname to VESS, but they are also in the right place at the right time, surrounded by many familiar families that connect with Peter, Willis, and Nathan!

Also, because the Vice family is supposedly from Frederick County, Virginia, there is still a chance for a possible connection with the Vess/Vest family in Patrick County, Virginia!

So, I am extremely excited!! This could be our family’s missing link OR I am embarking upon another goose-chase!